Subj:	#1(2) TRAVELLER digest 356
Date:	95-07-23 20:07:13 EDT
From:	traveller@mpgn.com
To:	traveller@mpgn.com

From:	traveller@mpgn.com
Sender:	traveller@mpgn.com
Reply-to:	traveller@mpgn.com
To:	traveller@mpgn.com (Multiple recipients of list)
Mail Split By Gateway

			    TRAVELLER Digest 356

Topics covered in this issue include:

  1) Trademarks and Gaming	by jeff.zeitlin@execnet.com (JEFF ZEITLIN)
  2) Re: Walkers	by "Harold D. Hale" <HDHALE@smtpwpo.dayt.tasc.com>
  3) ship maintainance questions	by rhunt@med.unc.edu (Rick Hunt)
  4) Re: Grandfather	by CyHiggin@aol.com

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Sat, 22 Jul 95 11:00:00 -0500
From: jeff.zeitlin@execnet.com (JEFF ZEITLIN)
To: traveller@MPGN.COM
Subject: Trademarks and Gaming
Message-ID: <8ADB294.0100051A86.uuout@execnet.com>


As people no doubt know, there has been a major flap going on over
TSR's actions regarding net archives of player-created works.  So
far, only three companies have come out with a clear statement of
policy with regard to this issue: TSR, Steve Jackson Games, and
Palladium, with Palladium and SJG taking very nearly diametrically
opposed views, and TSR being closer to the Palladium end of the
spectrum. (Side note: a message was posted here [by me] effectively
asking Loren to get a statement from GDW on their policy.  The last
time I followed up, several months ago, I was told that the lawyers
were still looking into it.)  The majority of the gaming community
seems to prefer that the SJG view prevail, but they apparently
accept that there will ultimately have to be a compromise between
SJG's view and the Palladium/TSR view.  Law in this area seems to
be fuzzy at best; it is widely believed that the law will
ultimately take guidance from (but not necessarily totally ratify)
general industry practice.  In an attempt to come to a reasonable
medium and establish it as general industry practice, Jim
Vassilakos, Larry Smith, Joel Hahn, and Guy Robinson have created
the policy appended to this message, and are asking for comments.
They have not gone to the game companies with it, yet; they want to
get a feel for how the customer community feels about it first.

Please send your comments to the list if you don't mind them being
public; I'll be happy to forward them.  If you want to comment
privately, you can send them to me and I'll forward them, or you
can send them directly to one of them, at the addresses below.  Jim
seems to be the designated contact.

jimv@cs.ucr.edu (Jim Vassilakos)
larrys@zk3.dec.com (Larry Smith)
jhahn@nslsilus.org (Joel "Aardy" Hahn)
guy.sbd-e@rx.xerox.com (Guy Robinson)

============================================================================

Hi everybody. Larry, Joel, Guy and myself have been busy for the
past two weeks working on what we feel is a fair and legally-
sustainable compromise to this copyright issue. We intend to send
this to various RPG publishers to get their support, however,
before we take the big-plunge, we want to get some feedback from
you guys, the gamers on the net. Are you folks willing to abide
by this agreement if we somehow manage to get the companies to
accept it?

Please read it through and let me know what you think either via
email or here on the net. Thanks...  jimv@cs.ucr.edu

-----------------------------------------------------------------
Convention on the Toleration of Compatible Products
Both Commercially and Non-Commercially Produced
Version 0.7  (17-July-1995)
-----------------------------------------------------------------

     Legal Note: AD&D(r), Forgotten Realms(r), and World
     of Greyhawk(r), are all registered trademarks of TSR,
     Inc. Traveller(r) is a registered trademark of GDW.
     These trademarks are used here without permission.
     This use is not intended as a claim of ownership over
     the trademarks being used.

     Another Legal Note: The authors of this document are
     not lawyers. No part of this document should be
     construed as legal advice. We are fans who want to
     provide one possible alternative to the copyright
     policy TSR is using to tread on the legal rights of
     roleplaying enthusiasts. At the same time we want to
     protect the legal rights of friendly RPG publishers.
     A detailed industry-wide policy may be useful to
     all parties concerned. If you are an RPG publisher
     or an RPG consumer, please read this and let us
     know what you think.

- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -

We, the undersigned, agree in principle that roleplaying games
represent a unique category of creative expression and, hence,
are worthy of their own set of rules with respect to copyright
violation and fair use.

A roleplaying game is part game system and part novelization. It
is a hybrid of two very distinct categories of expression. Hence,
the rules governing the fair use of elements of published RPGs
ought to be a hybrid of the rules used for standard board games
and for novels.

We hereby adopt the following standards until such time as the
courts and/or laws of our respective nations provide otherwise:


I. Definitions

A. Terms

   Roleplaying games tend to be couched in a distinctive
terminology that in some ways betrays the hobby's roots in war
gaming. These terms are used to codify the affairs of a
roleplaying game into something about which rules may be written.
As a consequence it is hard for a roleplayer to talk about a
given game without resorting to those game terms.
   For our purposes, a "term" is any RPG element which represents
an attribute of a given character, place, or prop and which has
some value or set of values associated with it which can vary.
For example, in 1st edition AD&D (which we will refer to often
since it was the earliest successful RPG) "hitpoints" is a term
which refers to a character's ability to avoid and absorb
"damage".
   Some common terms in AD&Dv1: strength, intelligence, wisdom,
dexterity, constitution, comeliness, class, level, hitpoints,
armor class, thaco, damage/attack, alignment, treasure type,
move, experience points, saving throws, etc.

B. Rules

   The rules of a game give a structure to what might otherwise
be considered just a group story or a collaborative discussion.
They provide a system by which to determine results. Hence, for
our purposes, a "rule" is any systematic method used in an RPG to
determine an outcome which is not specifically associated with a
prop (see below). For example, it is a "rule" in AD&Dv1 that if a
character falls 10 feet, he sustains d6 damage. By way of
contrast, it is not a "rule" that a character "hit" by a giant
chicken sustains d4 damage, as that determination is the result
of a prop attribute (see below), not a rule.

C. Props

   Everyone knows that nouns refer to people, places, and things.
Well, props are the "things" of roleplaying games. To be more
precise, they are modular elements of RPGs which characters can
belong to, have, or interact with during the course of an
adventure. Note that while props may refer to a category of
character (either racial or professional), they do not refer
individual characters. In short, characters are not props, nor
are places props. So what, then, specifically counts as a prop?
   Props in 1st edition AD&D include (but are not necessarily
limited to) monsters, character races, specific magical spells
and psionic abilities, skills and proficiencies, character
classes and sub-classes, weapons, armor, magical items, and other
miscellaneous equipment.

   Prop Attributes: The "attributes" of a prop include any terms
and their associated values with respect to the general case of
the prop in question. For example, the attributes of the "Giant
Chicken", an unofficial creature for use with AD&D, may be
written as follows:

     Frequency: Rare      # Appearing: 1-10
     Armor Class: 7       Move: 15"
     Hit Dice: 1+1        % in Lair: 50%
     Treasure Type: Nil   # of Attacks: 1
     Damage/Attack: 1-4   Intelligence: Animal
     Alignment: Neutral   Size: S
     Thaco: 18            XP: 20+2/hp

   Prop Vitals: The "vitals" of a prop include any important
terms and their associated values with respect to the specific
instance of the prop in question. That is to say, while
attributes would be used with respect to "Giant Chickens" in
general, one would use vitals to delineate in game terminology a
specific encounter with some given number of Giant Chickens. For
example, some vitals of a random Giant Chicken might be written
as follows: (HP:3, AC:7, TH:18, D/A:d4, XP:26). What qualifies as
important depends on how the prop is being used. In the example
provided above, the prop is a creature to be used in a combat
encounter. Hence, the combat-related attributes are considered
important, and hence the vitals which are listed are all combat-
related.

   Prop Description: The "description" of a prop includes any
information which cannot be quantified by the game terminology.
For example, the description for the Giant Chicken might be as
follows: "The giant chicken lives in giant chicken coops in
Wisconsin where hero-wizards tend their flocks of sheep."

D. Characters & Places

   Roleplaying is primarily an exercise of the imagination.
Individual players assume the roles of characters in a fictional
game universe, a sort of virtual setting in which the imaginary
events of the game take place. This setting is, essentially, a
fictional background which is either wholly created by the
GameMaster/Referee or which is provided in some sketchy format by
the publishers of the RPG for the GM/Ref to detail.
   Characters are the imaginary people in this roleplaying
background. For example, Navero, the altar boy once played by Dan
Parsons in an AD&D Campaign, is a character. Characters may also
exist as items which have an identifiable and unique personality.
For example, Elric's Sword can be considered a character. It is
important to note that races, monsters, and classes are not
characters. While an individual "elf", an individual "orc", or an
individual "fighter" may be characters, until they have been
characterized with an identifiable and unique personality, they
are only props.
   Places are the imaginary localities of a game setting. Hence,
the cities and dungeons Navero visited during Dan Parson's
campaign were places.


II. Assertions

A. Terms

   We assert that terms are _not_ copyrightable and that it is
perfectly legal for individuals to incorporate game terminology
into their own works to create and to publish without restraint
new props and rules for any given game system.

B. Rules

   While the letter of copyright law preserves the right to
create a "new" game by paraphrasing the rules of an existing one,
we hold that this is an unethical attempt to steal intellectual
property, and we do not condone or support that. However, we do
support the right to create and distribute alternate/variant/
replacement rules for an RPG as well as new/supplementary rules,
so long as (a) no actual text of any original rules are quoted,
and (b) so long as the author clearly states that the rules he or
she is writing are not a product of the vendor of the game system
so modified and/or supplemented.

C. Props

   We assert that props are copyrightable to the extent that they
are original, but that even if they are completely original, they
may still be legally referenced.

   Use in game supplements and adventures: While the prop
"description" may not be copied outright and verbatim, the
"vitals" of props may be inserted into unofficial game
supplements and adventures as long as the source of the material
is properly cited (see Subsection II.F below).

   Use in programs: The "attributes" of props may be incorporated
into computer software programs in order to determine "vitals"
for any sort of random-generation application. Again, the source
should be properly cited (Subsection II.F).

   Use in stories: Props which can clearly be identified with a
particular game system (i.e. props which are not from mythology
and which are not generic to the genre) can only be used in
stories to the extent they can be used in game supplements and
adventures (i.e. only vitals may be quoted). Since quoting game
stats in a story is generally not going to be desirable, it is
likely most authors will prefer not to use props which can be
identified with a specific game system. For example, there is
little point in saying "Three Umber Hulks show up" if you aren't
allowed to describe the Umber Hulks.
   Note, however, that although races are protected by copyright,
it is necessary for someone alleging a violation to show that all
vital elements of the race have been used. You cannot have in
your story a tall, gorilla-like creature called a "Wookie" that
speaks only in grunts and howls and uses a crossbow that fires
light bolts. You can, however, have a short humanoid with furry
feet, a fondness for food and a predilection for extra-legal
acquisition of personal property, provided it isn't called a
"Hobbit" (or a "Halfling" for that matter, which is what TSR is
calling them).
   Our suggestion in light of this practice is that you either
acquire permission to use the race in a story or that you change
the race's name and enough of its important characteristics to
make it usable in the story as your own separate creation. Of
course, you can use the mythological version of any race that
exists in mythology so long as you stay away from a particular
gamesystem's version of that race (for example, the AD&D version
of the Drow is somewhat different from the mythological version,
so if you want to have Drow in your story, make sure you don't
use the AD&D version without TSR's permission).


D. Characters & Places

   We assert that characters and places are copyrightable to the
extent that they are original. Unlike props, they may not be
referenced except within the most narrow confines.

   Use in game supplements and adventures: You may not write
adventures or supplements which take place in or make use of some
specific locale of a previously published game setting or which
make use of a previously published character. For example, you
may not write an adventure which takes place in Shadowdale of the
Forgotten Realms or which makes use of Elminster the Mage. You
may, however, write an adventure which "could" take place in the
Forgotten Realms or which could even take place in Shadowdale, so
long as it does not refer to specific locales within the Realms
or Shadowdale. In short, either allow the individual GM to
situate the adventure or base it a setting you created yourself.

   Use in programs: You may not write programs which incorporate
or otherwise make use of copyrighted characters or places.

   Use in stories: You may not write stories which make use of
copyrighted characters or places without the permission of the
copyright holder. If you write stories, base them in your own
setting or get the permission of the copyright holder to use
theirs.

E. Attributing Trademarks

   Before a registered trademark is used, it must be properly
attributed to the trademark holder in a conspicuous location of
the document or program (for example, "This Product is for use
with AD&D. AD&D(r) is a registered trademark of TSR, Inc. and is
used here without permission. This use is not intended as a claim
of ownership over the trademark.").
   There are various ways to properly attribute a trademark. Here
are three methods which hopefully might work. (Note: As stated
before, we are not lawyers, so if any of this is wrong, somebody
please correct us.)
      1. List all the trademarks used in the document in a
paragraph at the beginning of the document. You do not have to
make any marks [such as (r) or (tm)] next to these trademarks
during the actual use in the text.
      2. Capitalize all trademarks in the document and write a
paragraph at the beginning of the document disclaiming all
capitalized trademarks as being owned by whomever their
respective owners are.
      3. Insert marks [(r) or (tm)] next to each use of a
trademark. With the first use of each trademark, include a
footnote citing the owner.

F. Providing Source Information

   Whenever a prop from another publication (commercial or
non-commercial, electronic or non-electronic) is referenced,
provide information as to where to find the full description of
the prop.
   * If the source is an individual, state the name or pseudonym
of the author and his or her electronic address.
   * If the source is an electronic document, state the title of
the document and the location (ftp site or www page) where the
document can be found.
   * If the source is non-electronic (i.e. print), state the
publisher, title, and page number(s).

G. Statement of Compatibility

   Observe one of the example formats when alleging compatibility
with a given game system.
      (Good) Example: "This adventure is compatible with AD&D."
      (Good) Example: "This adventure is for use with AD&D."
   Do not use the following format:
      (Bad) Example: "This is an AD&D adventure."

H. Recommendation of Material Requirements

   Inform the target audience what materials are required to
properly use the work in question. For example: "To run this
adventure, you will need a copy of the 'Players Handbook', the
'Monster Manual' and the 'Dungeon Masters Guide', all published
by TSR."


III. Questions & Answers

A. Porting of Props

   Question: Under these guidelines, are we allowed to "port"
props from one game system to the next? For example, are we
allowed to port Traveller's "Aslan" to AD&D?

   Answer: You are allowed to quote the vitals of an Aslan when
writing an adventure for Traveller. However, it would make no
sense whatsoever to quote these vitals in an AD&D adventure. The
two games use entirely different terminology. You may make up
your own AD&D stats for the Aslan if you wish (note, you will
still need to cite your source since you are lifting the name
"Aslan" from a previously published work), but you may not quote
verbatim any significant part of the description of the Aslan. In
short, the answer is no. These guidelines do not allow the
wholesale porting of races between systems.

B. Free-of-Charge vs. For-Profit

   Question: Why aren't you making any distinction between works
that are distributed free-of-charge as opposed to those which are
distributed for-profit? After all, this distinction figures into
the first legal criterion for determining whether or not a
derivative work qualifies under fair use. Furthermore, several of
the companies so-far friendly to their consumers on the Internet
have established this in their own policies as an important
distinction.

   Answer: Unfortunately, the courts in the United States don't
seem to have made as big a fuss over this criterion as many on
the net would like. Profit and non-profit constitute just one of
the tests a court may apply in determining whether a given use is
"fair use", but it is not statutory, nor is it required in all
cases. In fact, it normally doesn't apply unless the court needs
additional justification to substantiate educational use.
Granted, the criterion does come into play when determining fines
if the use is deemed an unlawful infringement of copyright (for-
profit use will trigger a potentially greater fine than non-
profit use). Nonetheless, when determining fair use, the
criterion just isn't used as much as most people think.
   Furthermore, making such a distinction does not serve our
purposes in the broader sense. While the immediate issue is to
protect the interests of gamers in distributing their work in the
non-profit arena, if we were to yield the point that only
non-profit work should be protected, then we would be
surrendering competitive marketing opportunities that are in the
best interests of the entire roleplaying games publishing
industry.
   As is stated in the Constitution, the government is empowered
to grant copyrights in order to encourage the production of new
intellectual property. It grants no authority to issue copyrights
because they are profitable or because the author has a "right"
to make money from them, and its authority in this matter ends
when copyrights can be used to block the production of new
material. The Supreme Court has been very consistent within those
boundaries.

C. Re-writing Entire Game Systems

   Question: Within these guidelines you state: "While the letter
of copyright law preserves the right to create a 'new' game by
paraphrasing the rules of an existing one, we hold that this is
an unethical attempt to steal intellectual property." Is this
really true that the law allows such paraphrasing of an entire
game system? I mean, suppose some company named Voodoo Games does
a complete rewrite of Chivalry & Sorcery and calls it Voodoo
Madness. Obviously, the makers of C&S (wherever they are these
days) wouldn't like that one bit.

   Answer: To quote some copyright law: "Copyright protection
does not extend to any idea, system, method, device, or trademark
material involved in the development, merchandising, or playing
of a game." Judging from this statement, Voodoo Madness would be
treated as a new game, albeit one with enough similarities to use
props and adventures and programs and so-forth that were written
to be for use with C&S. Consider it to be "C&S Compliant." To
port this example to the computer industry, there is nothing that
Intel can do to stop AMD from marketing their 486 clone as a 486,
and not even their trademark on the name "Pentium" permits them
to prohibit AMD from claiming its processor is "Pentium-
compatible."
   Despite the clarity of the law, however, people still disagree
as to whether or not such acts in the RPG industry are ethical.
Some argue (as has been successfully argued in the computer
industry) that copycats serve to lower prices and enhance
quality, hence yielding the consumer more bang per buck. However,
we feel that in the RPG publishing industry, such a practice
would be counterproductive simply on the grounds that it is much
easier to copycat a game system than it is to invent a new one,
and hence it is possible that given that option, that is all that
companies would do. This, of course, would reduce innovation, and
it would be bad for the consumer as well as for the hobby in
general. Of course, we also feel that such a practice would be
immoral. People would be able to capitalize on the hard work of
others without paying any licensing fees or royalties whatsoever,
and we feel this is unfair. Since winning lawsuits against such
actions seems somewhat unlikely in light of the current laws,
litigation in such circumstances will probably be designed to
punish and drain resources rather than to win. For the reasons
stated above, we feel such litigation is justified.

D. Campaign Write-ups

   Question: Many gamers like to write-up the events of their
campaigns. Often these campaigns take place in professionally
published game settings. You seem to be stomping on the use in
campaign write-ups (i.e. stories) of races, monsters, as well as
characters and places from such game settings. Isn't this against
everything that gamers on the Internet want?

   Answer: Unfortunately, yes, it is against what many people
want. There are certain areas where the law doesn't seem to be
designed very well with respect to what we want. Not only does it
make the rewriting of entire game systems legal (something most
gamers could care less about, but something that most games
publishers are bound to hate), but it also seems to make writing
stories about published races or published settings illegal
infringement (something many games publishers wouldn't care
about, but something many gamers would like to be allowed to do).
In writing this convention, we tried to steer clear of our
personal wants and prejudices and instead stick fairly close to
the law. We fully expect that some publishers will go the extra
mile and say, "You can write stories set on this game world or
incorporating these races/monsters," however, we didn't feel
justified in establishing this for all publishers, particularly
when we knew that such a stand would probably eventually be
struck down in the courts and hence undermine this entire
convention. Everything we put into this work we expect will prove
legally sound. Hence, we see no reason why any game company
shouldn't embrace this convention. At least then, we'll all be
operating from the same legal altitude and there will be no more
guessing as to what's okay and what's not.

-----------------------------------------------------------------

jimv@cs.ucr.edu (Jim Vassilakos)
larrys@zk3.dec.com (Larry Smith)
jhahn@nslsilus.org (Joel "Aardy" Hahn)
guy.sbd-e@rx.xerox.com (Guy Robinson)

====================================================================
I think, from a couple of quick reads, that I can live with this
policy.  I'd quite frankly prefer a policy that is more amenable to
story-writeups of campaigns, and similar non-game works, but I have
to agree with Jim with regards to the current state of legal
sustainability.

Loren, if you're reading this, I'm not asking you to comment on
this proposed policy - in fact, I'm asking you to wait on such
comment until GDW is approached directly.  However, I think the
list would still like to see some sort of official/semi-official
guidelines from GDW on the general issue of community-generated
materials for the Traveller line.  Are we anywhere near seeing
such?

==========================================================================
Jeff Zeitlin                                      jeff.zeitlin@execnet.com

cc: XBOAT@MPGN.COM
---
  OLXWin 1.00a  Talk is cheap, because supply exceeds demand

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 23 Jul 1995 13:13:55 -0400
From: "Harold D. Hale" <HDHALE@smtpwpo.dayt.tasc.com>
To: traveller@MPGN.COM
Subject: Re: Walkers
Message-ID: <s0124b35.074@smtpwpo.dayt.tasc.com>

Brendan O'Donovan writes:

>I'd recommend  that when designing walkers, the number of 
>legs fitted should probably be a  cosmetic decision, as 
>the transmission volume is a pretty good indicator of  
>performance.

   This seems to be the same conclusion that was reached by
GDW when they put together FF&S.

>>Could the following chart then be said to be more or less 
>>correct?

<snip>

>My immediate reaction was that it seemed a bit generous, 
>but once a  contra grav (necessary for the TL12/14 
>transmissions?) has been fitted,  they would probably look 
>better. Someone needs to do a walker design with these to 
>see if they're reasonable, I'll try and find time.

   I#m in the process of putting together a preliminary revised
walker design sequence. I#ll post it on Monday sometime, which 
means it should appear on the mailing list in issue #356 or 357
(or there abouts).

>A TL 10 wheeled transmission design would probably  
>solve this problem, using magnetically levitated axles to 
>remove most of the internal friction.

   We#ll fixed wheeled vehicles a bit later.  :)

>Yes, when discussing walker design it's best not to think 
>of how well determined  TL1 natives could do against them, 
>with tripwires/pits/dropping treetrunks.

   With tripwires, about as well as the Ewoks did I should
think (useless). Pits...hmmm, those could be trouble, but
those would be trouble to anything that walked (including
humans). Another use for contragrav, eh?  Just as the natives
send up a cheer because they trapped one of the mechanical
monsters that is tormenting them, it raises slowly out of the pit
and wreaks havoc on them.  Dropping trunks wouldn#t work if 
the side and top of the walker were sufficiently armored, which it
appeared the Imperial scout walkers weren#t.


--Harold



------------------------------

Date: Sun, 23 Jul 95 14:07:12 EDT
From: rhunt@med.unc.edu (Rick Hunt)
To: traveller@MPGN.COM
Subject: ship maintainance questions
Message-ID: <9507231807.AA20833@dallas.med.unc.edu>


It is time for the new GM to ask more questions.  I hope you guys don't
mind helping me out.  Nothing seems to be where I expect it to be in the
rules.

What is the role of wear value in starship maintainance?  Earlier in the
chapter, the rules say that you roll for breakdown every 8 hours, but this
seems a little extreme for a ship in jump.  Even a ship with a wear of 1
and a good engineer will never last a week in jump.

Does maintainance cost money?  Or does the crew just walk around
tightening screws and pushing buttons?  Does the wear value have any
effect on time or money?

How much fuel is used in normal maneuvers?  The rules say it is based on a
formula based on weight, acceleration, etc., but never gives the formula.
Is the formula in some $30 supplement?

As you can tell, we have gone from trying to buy equipment to trying to
fly the ship. :-)

Rick


------------------------------

Date: Sun, 23 Jul 1995 15:28:49 -0400
From: CyHiggin@aol.com
To: traveller@MPGN.COM
Subject: Re: Grandfather
Message-ID: <950723152848_38975637@aol.com>


And for those Cthulhu: The New Era referees out there...

>Grandfather is the Ancient!  Okay, who are the Ancients?  Well, 
>there are a mysterious race that averaged around TL26-27.  

Great Old Ones....

>Grandfather was the head honcho of the Ancients.  He was >highly intelligent
beyond all belief.  Right now he just lives in a >pocket universe and watches
the silliness that takes place (and >yes, he's also probably waiting for the
way-too-much delayed >Regency Sourcebook 8).

Highly intelligent, awesomely powerful psionic, has the 
requisite unpronouceable name (Yaskaydroy), self-exiled [so THEY say] in a
dimension beyond our own accessible by Gates
known to the initiated; amuses itself watching the foolishness 
of mortals, and for all we know, is waiting for "the stars to be right
again".  Sounds like a Great Old One to me.

The question is, is Yaskaydroy mentioned in the Necronomicon,
and would you trust the sanity of anyone who had read enough
of it to know?

> They existed over 300,000 years ago.  They are the ones who 
>are responsible for creating the Vargr race out of ordinary >Terran canines.
 They are also responsible for transporting 
>humaniti (notice the old-school spelling) through-out the stars.

Uplift seems to be a popular pastime for Great Old Ones... 
Cthulhu created the Deep Ones, those starfish thingies
in Antarctica created Shoggoths...  Humans uplifted Dolphins...

>Pssst.  Don't tell this little secret to anyone, but the Ancients
> were actually the Droyne!  Shhh....

Yaskaydroy even has his own race of servitor/worshippers...

>Well, they had a war and basically wiped themsleves out.  

That's what THEY want you to believe.

                                     --- Wilbur Whateley's half sister.


------------------------------

End of TRAVELLER Digest 356
***************************


----------------------- Headers --------------------------------
From traveller@mpgn.com Sun Jul 23 20:08:07 1995
Received: from Ambassador.MPGN.COM by emin04.mail.aol.com with ESMTP
	(1.37.109.16/16.2) id AA082944487; Sun, 23 Jul 1995 20:08:07 -0400
Return-Path: <traveller@mpgn.com>
Received: from  (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by Ambassador.MPGN.COM (8.6.9/8.6.9)
with SMTP id UAA00275; Sun, 23 Jul 1995 20:02:53 -0400
Date: Sun, 23 Jul 1995 20:02:53 -0400
Message-Id: <199507240002.UAA00275@Ambassador.MPGN.COM>
Errors-To: traveller-request@mpgn.com
Reply-To: traveller@mpgn.com
Originator: traveller@mpgn.com
Sender: traveller@mpgn.com
Precedence: bulk
From: traveller@mpgn.com
To: Multiple recipients of list <traveller@mpgn.com>
Subject: TRAVELLER digest 356
X-Listprocessor-Version: 6.0c -- ListProcessor by Anastasios Kotsikonas
X-Comment: Traveller Mailing List
